Fortifications - Normandy

[Plain Ian]

Well I guess it would be easy to make up a spreadsheet calculator where you just type in the factors (Target type, Attacker Quality, Bonuses) using Drop Down options and it gives you the % chance of hits...... but I guess this takes away a lot of the hidden gameplay of the system and lts of people wouldn't play that way.

Heck I'm always surprised by the number of people who want to play a scenario blind without looking at it first. I've been accused of cheating before because I just wanted to see the opening position of both SIDES!

So God knows what they would say if they knew I used a Battle Calculator before Firing/Assaulting.

Ian in Dundee

[Ashcloud]

I want a battle calculator built in.

[LordDeadwood]

Well I guess it would be easy to make up a spreadsheet calculator where you just type in the factors (Target type, Attacker Quality, Bonuses) using Drop Down options and it gives you the % chance of hits...... but I guess this takes away a lot of the hidden gameplay of the system and lts of people wouldn't play that way.

Heck I'm always surprised by the number of people who want to play a scenario blind without looking at it first. I've been accused of cheating before because I just wanted to see the opening position of both SIDES!

So God knows what they would say if they knew I used a Battle Calculator before Firing/Assaulting.

Ian in Dundee

I have created a "battle calculator" sheet in Excel. I would share it here, but it is not quite complete and I would need to "polish" it up before sharing it publicly. It can be quite eye opening. The calculator only gives the modified "attack value" (not sure if that is the correct term), not any actual results as that information is buried deep in the WDS code (as it should be).

I 100% agree with your comment about playing blind. I always look at the opening positions of both sides before playing a game. The FOW factor goes a little too far IMO. No competent commander would initiate an attack without at least some idea of the enemy's positions and strength.

[Dion]

I want a battle calculator built in.

A in game battle calculator, bad idea. It's perfect the way it is. You already see enemy unit size, as in x, xx, or xxx. Plus remember a fortification represents a fortified area, not one single fortification, so a battle calculator would display all kinds of information that you wouldn't be able to readily obtain on the battlefield. Having a battle calculator would be like having some kind of new high tech weapon system.

Having a battle calculator for your own private use wouldn't be entirely a bad idea though. I think you should make it yourself though, that way it could be customized and tailored to your specific needs and you would have more appreciation of its capabilities.

I guess a battle calculator would make the game unique, kind of like combining the scale of Panzer Campaigns and scale of Squad Battles into one, but it would take more than just a spreadsheet, the entire UI would have to be changed, or maybe an entirely new game could be made. We could call it Panzer Battles. I wonder how fortifications are handled over there?

[guino27]

One other thing: It's easy to forget about the quality of your firing units. A "D" quality unit gets a -20% modifier to the firing strength. And many, if not most, artillery units are "D" quality. I am playing the France '40 campaign as the Germans. Brought up the 24cm morser units to pound a Belgian fort. The target is a FORT in a village. Pounded away for several turns, getting nothing but "No Effect". Finally ran the fire value calculations. Even with the siege gun bonus, the "D" quality -20% was enough to make the cumulative fire value negative. That canon was never going to cause any damage to that particular fort. If it had been a "C" quality, there would have been a chance of causing damage. Only way that fort is going down is through costly assaults, so I left it surrounded and moved on. Lesson learned!

I see what you are getting at. I do think that being isolated should have a more dramatic impact, maybe not for one turn, but after maybe 3-4 turns some sort of attrition would be happening. Getting off Omaha beach shouldn't take the better part of 2 days. Certainly the bulk of one day is very realistic, but the defenses weren't among the toughest in the war, just a bit difficult after a chaotic landing.

[Steel God]

One other thing: It's easy to forget about the quality of your firing units. A "D" quality unit gets a -20% modifier to the firing strength. And many, if not most, artillery units are "D" quality. I am playing the France '40 campaign as the Germans. Brought up the 24cm morser units to pound a Belgian fort. The target is a FORT in a village. Pounded away for several turns, getting nothing but "No Effect". Finally ran the fire value calculations. Even with the siege gun bonus, the "D" quality -20% was enough to make the cumulative fire value negative. That canon was never going to cause any damage to that particular fort. If it had been a "C" quality, there would have been a chance of causing damage. Only way that fort is going down is through costly assaults, so I left it surrounded and moved on. Lesson learned!

I see what you are getting at. I do think that being isolated should have a more dramatic impact, maybe not for one turn, but after maybe 3-4 turns some sort of attrition would be happening. Getting off Omaha beach shouldn't take the better part of 2 days. Certainly the bulk of one day is very realistic, but the defenses weren't among the toughest in the war, just a bit difficult after a chaotic landing.

Everything can be viewed as a trade off....I happen to be playing the N44 Campaign at the moment, and at the end of Day 1 my Omaha Beach zone was quite frankly a mess and I hadn't gotten a single hex inland. I was at the point I couldn't bring in new units due to stacking restrictions. But by the end of Day 2 not only had Omaha opened up, it was actually the landing zone with the widest and deepest inland penetration. So, yes the defender can make life hard for you at a place like Omaha but it will cost on the back end as there will be little behind that if he sells out to try and crush you on the sands. Letting you get off those beaches on Day 1 may seem counter intuitive, but could actually do more to slow the progress of the Allies in the long run.

[Dion]

I may be wrong on this point, but I believe isolated units can't be resupplied, but being in a fortification may not matter because there might be ammo caches in there, theoretically speaking of course, as there really ain't any such thing as "ammo cache units" in Panzer Campaigns. That may be why one type of fortification is called "FORT", it may have extra rooms for storage. So theoretically speaking you may not even be able to isolate them. Or maybe the best you can do is just cause "part" isolation.

But I believe getting the enemy out of a fortification is more important than isolation anyway, as it takes so long to get them out of there in the first place. I bet you'll end up taking hundreds of casualties before you make them retreat (maybe more). If you get them to retreat then you won't have to worry about it anymore, or at least not have to worry about taking hundreds of additional casualties.

[Steel God]

I may be wrong on this point, but I believe isolated units can't be resupplied, but being in a fortification may not matter because there might be ammo caches in there, theoretically speaking of course, as there really ain't any such thing as "ammo cache units" in Panzer Campaigns. That may be why one type of fortification is called "FORT", it may have extra rooms for storage. So theoretically speaking you may not even be able to isolate them. Or maybe the best you can do is just cause "part" isolation.

But I believe getting the enemy out of a fortification is more important than isolation anyway, as it takes so long to get them out of there in the first place. I bet you'll end up taking hundreds of casualties before you make them retreat (maybe more). If you get them to retreat then you won't have to worry about it anymore, or at least not have to worry about taking hundreds of additional casualties.

Using F40 as an example, a great many of the Pre-War Forts along the Maginot and hard points like Liege, Antwerp, etc have low value Supply Points built into them, maybe value of 20 or as low as 5 even. But by having the supply point in the fort the units can never be isolated and that makes them MUCH tougher. A fort without a supply point is very vulnerable because as soon as it is isolated it is a morale level lower, as soon as it fires once while isolated it is low ammo and another morale level lower. Even C quality units in that fort will not last long. And you are correct, isolated units in or out of forts do not be resupplied, or draw replacements.

[guino27]

One other thing: It's easy to forget about the quality of your firing units. A "D" quality unit gets a -20% modifier to the firing strength. And many, if not most, artillery units are "D" quality. I am playing the France '40 campaign as the Germans. Brought up the 24cm morser units to pound a Belgian fort. The target is a FORT in a village. Pounded away for several turns, getting nothing but "No Effect". Finally ran the fire value calculations. Even with the siege gun bonus, the "D" quality -20% was enough to make the cumulative fire value negative. That canon was never going to cause any damage to that particular fort. If it had been a "C" quality, there would have been a chance of causing damage. Only way that fort is going down is through costly assaults, so I left it surrounded and moved on. Lesson learned!

I see what you are getting at. I do think that being isolated should have a more dramatic impact, maybe not for one turn, but after maybe 3-4 turns some sort of attrition would be happening. Getting off Omaha beach shouldn't take the better part of 2 days. Certainly the bulk of one day is very realistic, but the defenses weren't among the toughest in the war, just a bit difficult after a chaotic landing.

Everything can be viewed as a trade off....I happen to be playing the N44 Campaign at the moment, and at the end of Day 1 my Omaha Beach zone was quite frankly a mess and I hadn't gotten a single hex inland. I was at the point I couldn't bring in new units due to stacking restrictions. But by the end of Day 2 not only had Omaha opened up, it was actually the landing zone with the widest and deepest inland penetration. So, yes the defender can make life hard for you at a place like Omaha but it will cost on the back end as there will be little behind that if he sells out to try and crush you on the sands. Letting you get off those beaches on Day 1 may seem counter intuitive, but could actually do more to slow the progress of the Allies in the long run.

Your point is a great one. Just got to June 9 and noticed there weren't really German forces between Bayeux and Carentan. I play with full FOW, but you can toggle it off. I figured I'd have a quick look to see if it was worth continuing. I guess the AI threw all their units at me early, because there was no way they could stop the troops coming off Omaha beach. Just a straight shot at St. Lo, although reinforcements were scheduled. By the time they arrived, they would be picked off pretty easily.

Thanks!