CS87: AI performance

[warhero88]

Similar to a Bolt 10 post I made below, I'm looking input from any players who have played CS87 as NATO vs AI WP.
1) Approximately how many turns did it take for the main WP forces to close up to the border region and broadly engage NATO forces? Approx how much of your time did that take?
2) Did you find the WP AI's attack to be reasonably coherent at first contact, or was it piecemeal, like one division here, another a few turns later, a few over here?
3) Once contact was made, did the WP AI perform at least reasonably well in pressing the attack once engaged?
Midge has been extremely helpful and has put together an excellent scenario with great research and no shortage of chrome. This post is in no way criticizing the scenario but rather seeking to understand how well the game's AI deals with such a complex operational setup.
So, while I am excited to try this game but want to get a bit of advance intel to make I know what I'm getting into (I don't want to be 15 turns in wondering when the Russian "toursists" are going to hit the border). Midge said he knew of at least on player who is playing NATO vs AI WP.
Thanks.

[warhero88]

The WP AI execution in CS87 is really terrible, just as found in Bolt 10. There are many pre-defined AI orders built into the scenario, like Bolt 10, and while the orders seem coherent in terms of sensible objectives on natural axes of advance, the units don't seem to want to follow them. I have no idea if there is a proprietary AI order definition methodology that could make this better, nor if CS/Bolt employs these BKMs. In addition, the now-there-is-an-official-WDS-term-for-it"HQ Lagging", is a giant issue with many WP divisions forging ahead w/o their HQ, which is several dozen hexes to the rear often with an artillery unit digging in, with the predictable effects on the spearhead! Sometimes the divisions reverse course and head back to their HQ. WP units often "mill about" after contact, perhaps for want of a nearby HQ, just as observed in pre-4.05 playthru of Bolt. I'm going to test another config to see if there is any improvement, but the AI is so terrible in this series, even 4.0.5+, it is not worth the significant cost in time monster scenarios require to play against the AI. You'll get to turn 5, bored for lack of competition, but with no shortage of eye strain.
I think the "playable" against AI statement should be taken out of the scenario description for CS87 and Bolt10. And to clarify my position.....It's not the scenarios: its the game engine......Playing CS87 against a human via pbem is no doubt hugely entertaining for those that employ that mode of play. The research depth is off-the-charts great, well beyond typical stock scenarios!

[Midge]

As I said in your SAMs post Warhero88

CS was designed for human vs human play

I was never convinced the AI could handle something of that complexity and magnitude effectively
There are just too many options and potential strategies that can be used, and more importantly, will need to be altered after first contact
Players that are good at thinking "on the hoof" as we say over here, seem to be the ones succeeding

Hell it's tough enough for me to play and I built the thing!

[warhero88]

Yeah Midge, I understand. I was hoping since since someone at wds put AI orders into CS87 (they look directly ported from Bolt 20) and the scenario description said "AI play", I was thinking it might hold up. I suspect no playtesting done on AI mode. Its really too bad because I was looking forward to wading into to CS87!
Im still fiddling around to see if I can scope it for Multiplayer, but not optimistic.

[TANSTAAFL]

I love the scenario but I only play solo, hot-seating both sides. The damn thing is so big I conveniently forget what I did for the other side anyhow, so fog of war is still there--I ambush myself a lot!

It's still a heavy commitment, because of all the units and the size of the map. In addition, because it's sort of a "come as you are" fight more than a real prepared assault sort of thing, a lot of units on both sides are spread out in their component sub-units, and bringing them all together is what takes a ton of time.

It's made more challenging because the size of the map makes it very hard to see enough of it at a usable level of detail to figure out "oh, I can pull those widely-scattered regiments from well behind the lines together to concentrate the division here!" Not something easily changed of course. I would love to have a usable planning map, though. The one in the game folder that is provided is...less than useful. It lacks any real map features other than terrain, no labels, etc. I'd really, really love to have a full-size high-rez planning map version of the game map, with labels and all. Even better, also have one with the starting units on both sides (I mean, everyone knew where everyone was pretty much anyhow).

I wonder, is there a way to export the game map as a .png or something? I tried taking screen grabs but haven't figured out a good way to stitch them together neatly, and that's still a lot of busy work.

[Ashcloud]

I love the scenario but I only play solo, hot-seating both sides. The damn thing is so big I conveniently forget what I did for the other side anyhow, so fog of war is still there--I ambush myself a lot!

It's still a heavy commitment, because of all the units and the size of the map. In addition, because it's sort of a "come as you are" fight more than a real prepared assault sort of thing, a lot of units on both sides are spread out in their component sub-units, and bringing them all together is what takes a ton of time.

It's made more challenging because the size of the map makes it very hard to see enough of it at a usable level of detail to figure out "oh, I can pull those widely-scattered regiments from well behind the lines together to concentrate the division here!" Not something easily changed of course. I would love to have a usable planning map, though. The one in the game folder that is provided is...less than useful. It lacks any real map features other than terrain, no labels, etc. I'd really, really love to have a full-size high-rez planning map version of the game map, with labels and all. Even better, also have one with the starting units on both sides (I mean, everyone knew where everyone was pretty much anyhow).

I wonder, is there a way to export the game map as a .png or something? I tried taking screen grabs but haven't figured out a good way to stitch them together neatly, and that's still a lot of busy work.

Take a snapshot from in game - File - Snapshot.

[Midge]

I love the scenario but I only play solo, hot-seating both sides. The damn thing is so big I conveniently forget what I did for the other side anyhow, so fog of war is still there--I ambush myself a lot!

That made me laugh...........been there, done that in some of my initial "head to head" testing

Apologies it's so big.................... at least I haven't got veterans giving me grief that I missed their old units out, every chef and pot washer is included with this!

You need to play pbem

[TANSTAAFL]

I used to do PBEM games, but I haven't in ages. I lost touch with all of the places for finding opponents, etc. though I probably should look into that. Mostly I play to fiddle around with situations and explore what-ifs. I'm not terribly competitive, and almost never look at victory points and all that. Solo hot-seat is fun though it does take a lot of time!

[Midge]

There's lots of good guys on here that'll give you a good game, there's half dozen or so good games running at the moment that I'm getting feedback from, all people that dip in and out of this modern forum

What's the worst that can happen (besides getting your arse handed to you on a plate by a 10 year old )

Although I'm sure there are some excellent 10 year old players out there, I get the impression most on hear are pushing 100

[warhero88]

I love the scenario but I only play solo, hot-seating both sides. The damn thing is so big I conveniently forget what I did for the other side anyhow, so fog of war is still there--I ambush myself a lot!

I wonder, is there a way to export the game map as a .png or something? I tried taking screen grabs but haven't figured out a good way to stitch them together neatly, and that's still a lot of busy work.

Take a snapshot from in game - File - Snapshot.

Ashcloud. Seriously. Had no idea that snapshot feature existed. Thanks!
And thanks to the developers for sticking these types of player aids in.