Bridging operations

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Verdun1916
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Bridging operations

Post by Verdun1916 »

So the other day I saw a post in the Panzer Campaigns section of the forum about bridging. A post which also has some merrit when it comes to
the Modern Campaigns series of games.
Link to said post:viewtopic.php?t=467

The post was essentially about the fact that in game bridge engineer units can only build a single bridge for the duration of a scenario, no matter how long the scenario is. The author of the post, after consulting historical sourses suggested that briging engineers should be able to be resupplied with new bridging materials. At least during long scenarios.

This is something I agree with.

In the Modern Campaigns titles we have two kinds of bridge building units: bridge engineers aswell as mechanized bridge layers.
Bridge engineer units can build one bridge and either has the option of staying with the bridge to maintain it, or to abandon it for the unit to move. In case of the latter it loses it's bridge building ability for the rest of the scenario. To me this is problematic since in reality this type of unit would either carry enough bridging equipment for several shorter bridges for crossing minor waterways or for a single bridge to cross wider waterways. In reality such a unit would also be resupplied eventually with new bridging equipment. A slower resupply chain mind you than for the resupply of fuel and ammunition. Bridge engineers should also be able to source local materials for bridge building, such as timbers for example as that is something most nations bridge engineer units are still trained to do. (Epscially appropriate for the Panzer Campaigns and the First World War Campaigns series of games where timber more common as building materials for this purpose.)
This might not be an issue during short scenarios when the need for building bridges might be small enough. However during longer scenarios this is an issue as you might run out of bridge building units.

The mechanized bridge layers in game can also build a single bridge, however they don't have to abandon a bridge to move on as they can pick it up again and then move on to lay it again in another place at another time. However these units seem to always contain multiple vehicles, yet are not capable of beeing split up like other types of units. That means they are limited to one bridge to be laid. . This is something I see as an issue. If each vehicle in a mechanized bridge laying unit represents the number of bridge laying vehicles in it, it should be able to lay that same number of bridges. But to do that the unit would either have to be able to break down into smaller units so the vehicle wo has laid a bridge can remain with it and the rest of the unit can move on to lay another bridge at another location. Or the unit should be able to move on while leaving the bridge behind to be continued to be used. After all these are low maintenace bridges constructed to be laid and left behind by the bridge layer. If not all the vehicles in such a unit are bridge layers, are they then support vehicles? In reality such support exists containing spare bridges to be resupplyed qickly to the bridge layers after they have laid the initial bridges carried by the bridge layers.
Having some personal experience myself with cold war era bridge layers I also see another issue with these units in game. That is the fact that it can also take many turns for them the lay a bridge. This is understandable for the bridge engineer units who are literally building a bridge from parts. However a mechanized bridge layer carries a complete bridge which it can deployed in minutes! It's what it's intended to do, even under enemy fire. So how to represent this ingame considering the length of each turn? Well the simple solution would be that it would never take more than one turn for a mechanized bridge layer unit to lay a bridge. However this doesn't really reflect the reality nor the point of this type of vehicle meant to lay bridges withing minutes in a combat environment. So an instant laying of the bridge accuring during the same turn as you order it to do so, of course at a price of a certain amount of action points though. However not so many points as to force the unit to always having to wait for the next turn for a full pot of action points.
After all, mechanized bridge layers were designed to follow the armoured spear heads on the attack to quickly be able to bridge smaller waterways, ditches and other obstacles within minutes when the need arises, so the attack won't be stopped in it's tracks for hours while waiting for conventional bridge engineers to arrive to build a bridge. Yet the mechanized bridge layers in game doens't reflect this reality. Which kind of mutes the point of having them at all.

So what say you? Is there a way to improve on the bridging units as mentioned above? Or in some other way? Or do you feel the capabilities of the bridging units are good as is?

Cheers!
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LordDeadwood
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by LordDeadwood »

Completely agree on the mechanized bridge layers in Modern Campaigns. It seems to me it would be easy enough to allow a bridge laying unit to do so at the cost of 2/3 of its movement points, i.e., the same as the cost for an assault.

As for the idea of "re-supplying" bridging engineers in PzC, I think it's a good idea although I have no concept of how long that might take. As you said, it would only be useful in longer campaigns. But games like the 750-turn Normandy campaign and other long scenarios it seems would benefit from such a mechanic. And if you're going to do that, then doesn't that raise the possibility of a single engineer unit building multiple bridges? With a re-supply system it seems a unit could build a bridge and move on, leaving it in place, wait for re-supply, and then build another elsewhere. Certainly, a topic worth discussing.
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Verdun1916
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Verdun1916 »

LordDeadwood wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:45 am As for the idea of "re-supplying" bridging engineers in PzC, I think it's a good idea although I have no concept of how long that might take. As you said, it would only be useful in longer campaigns. But games like the 750-turn Normandy campaign and other long scenarios it seems would benefit from such a mechanic. And if you're going to do that, then doesn't that raise the possibility of a single engineer unit building multiple bridges? With a re-supply system it seems a unit could build a bridge and move on, leaving it in place, wait for re-supply, and then build another elsewhere. Certainly, a topic worth discussing.
Indeed it would mean that a bridge engineer unit would or should be able to move on and leave a bridge. I feel like the way it works in game now is unrealistic when requiring a full enigneer unit to literally garrison a bridge for it to be kept in usable order. A bailey bridge for example doesn't just collaps on it's own if noone is babysitting it. There are atleast two old bailey bridges on a former military exercise field close by were I live. They were built across the same stream at different points 40-50 years ago and they are still there and in working order. And no one has maintained them for atleast 20 years. Yet they still safely carries both vehicles, horses, bicyclists and pedestrians on a daily basis.

For the scope off even a long or very long scenario most types of bridges built by bridge engineer units would outlast the length of any scenario without having the unit that built it babysitting it. No matter if we are talking PzC, FWWC or MC. The only threat of them collapsing should be enemy air attacks, enemy artillery shelling or them beeing blown up.

Larger pontoon bridges over very wide waterways I can agree would need a crew maintaning them though. But not a full engineer company. So maybe a solution would be that the unit that built such a bridge would be able to move away, eventully be resupplied with bridging materials to be able to build a new bridge, but lose lets say 10-20 men of it's strenght to simulate them staying behind maintaining the bridge in question when doing so.

Just a bit of brainstorming here! But I hope I made my points clear enough.

Cheers!
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Pvt_Larry
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Pvt_Larry »

I have to agree on very long scenarios there should be some way to resupply bridging units; just off the top of my head I can think of Normandy, France '40 and Japan '46 where you have scenarios hundreds of turns long. Units left without bridging materials imposes a frankly unnecessary limitation on the attacking player. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to be any more complex than a long timer, like after a week or two you're good to go to build bridges again! Another angle which is interesting (but likely too complex) is the use of local supply like you mentioned with timber bridges, depending on the scenario you could perhaps still have engineers without supplies construct light bridges using locally-sourced materials, but with the restriction that they then wouldn't be able to support heavy vehicle traffic. That's probably getting too far down in the weeds though.
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Verdun1916
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Verdun1916 »

Pvt_Larry wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:16 am I have to agree on very long scenarios there should be some way to resupply bridging units; just off the top of my head I can think of Normandy, France '40 and Japan '46 where you have scenarios hundreds of turns long. Units left without bridging materials imposes a frankly unnecessary limitation on the attacking player. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't need to be any more complex than a long timer, like after a week or two you're good to go to build bridges again! Another angle which is interesting (but likely too complex) is the use of local supply like you mentioned with timber bridges, depending on the scenario you could perhaps still have engineers without supplies construct light bridges using locally-sourced materials, but with the restriction that they then wouldn't be able to support heavy vehicle traffic. That's probably getting too far down in the weeds though.
Thank you for your imput, Larry! Food for thought I must say.
It would be interesting try and find some info on how much bridging equipment was brought with engineer units, how much were held in reserve to resupply quickly and how much was kept in depots behind a theatre of operations historically speaking up until today. This off course must vary greatly depending on conflict/time span, nationality and even theatre of operations.
But different armies must have had some sort of regulation standard/supply oragnization for bridging engineers during the Second World War for example, or the time frame of the hypothetical conflict MC titles for example.
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All_American
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by All_American »

Should be easily doable without breaking scenario balance, I believe. Bridge engineers w/o bridges can be stacked in the same tile with their higher HQ, and a percentage chance per turn for them to get re-equipped could be implemented like you suggested. Very much like how units regain motorization after going on foot, but takes longer due to the roll each turn.
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Verdun1916
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Verdun1916 »

All_American wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:32 pm Should be easily doable without breaking scenario balance, I believe. Bridge engineers w/o bridges can be stacked in the same tile with their higher HQ, and a percentage chance per turn for them to get re-equipped could be implemented like you suggested. Very much like how units regain motorization after going on foot, but takes longer due to the roll each turn.
Sounds like a good idea for the conventional bridge engineers. A solution that would fit not just Modern Campaigns series but also PzC and FWWC.

The mechanized bridge layers on the other hand would need another system though to reflect their specialized role and capabilities: instant laying of a bridge + the ability to move on and lay another without having to resupply in between since such units include more than one bridge laying vehicle. But once the unit has exhausted it's number of bridges it should be able to resupply the same way as the conventional bridge engineers as suggested. And considering the type of bridges layed by such vehicles these should not suffer the abandoned bridge rules, but remain in place through out the scenario unless getting damaged/destroyed by attack.
An alternitive would be that a mechanized bridge layer unit loses one vehicle after each bridge laying operation, to simulate it remaining with the bridge to "maintain it", while the rest of the unit can move on to continue laying bridges. However if the unit picks up the bridge again after crossing it, it can continue on with the same strenght as previously. Then there would be no real need for resupplying the unit during the span off even long scenarios because the unit would last through it, beeing able to lay the same number of bridges as it has bridge laying vehicles.
Sergio65
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Sergio65 »

Verdun1916 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:38 am The post was essentially about the fact that in game bridge engineer units can only build a single bridge for the duration of a scenario, no matter how long the scenario is.
Which is not true.

I just built three bridges in FG85 using one engineer unit. I started out with a battalion-size unit, built a bridge, broke the unit down into three companies, kept one back to maintain the first bridge and sent the other two to build additional bridges in other locations. The additional bridges will be built at a slower rate to reflect the unit at less than battalion strength, but on average a company can erect a bridge in 2-3 turns.

When you break down a battalion only the original (top of stack) unit has the 'Has Bridge' label, but don't let that dissuade you, the other two retain their full bridging capabilities and will regain the label in subsequent turns.
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Verdun1916
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by Verdun1916 »

Sergio65 wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:49 pm
Verdun1916 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:38 am The post was essentially about the fact that in game bridge engineer units can only build a single bridge for the duration of a scenario, no matter how long the scenario is.
Which is not true.

I just built three bridges in FG85 using one engineer unit. I started out with a battalion-size unit, built a bridge, broke the unit down into three companies, kept one back to maintain the first bridge and sent the other two to build additional bridges in other locations. The additional bridges will be built at a slower rate to reflect the unit at less than battalion strength, but on average a company can erect a bridge in 2-3 turns.

When you break down a battalion only the original (top of stack) unit has the 'Has Bridge' label, but don't let that dissuade you, the other two retain their full bridging capabilities and will regain the label in subsequent turns.
Interresting! I have't played FG'85. I have played NGP'85, Kharkov'43, FWWC France'14 but have not encountered batallion sized bridging engineers unit so far except of in the latter, and there I have not had much cause to build alot of bridges yet. But that might be for the simple reason I have only played scenarios so far that have company sized units of this type.
Mechanized bridge laying units I have never encountered in larger units than 12 vehicles, so company size aswell. And those doesn't seem to break down into smaller units. And if each vehicles represent an individual bridge layer such a unit should be have a bridge laying capability of 12 bridges atleast.
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LordDeadwood
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Re: Bridging operations

Post by LordDeadwood »

Verdun1916 wrote: Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:01 am
Sergio65 wrote: Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:49 pm
Verdun1916 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:38 am The post was essentially about the fact that in game bridge engineer units can only build a single bridge for the duration of a scenario, no matter how long the scenario is.
Which is not true.

I just built three bridges in FG85 using one engineer unit. I started out with a battalion-size unit, built a bridge, broke the unit down into three companies, kept one back to maintain the first bridge and sent the other two to build additional bridges in other locations. The additional bridges will be built at a slower rate to reflect the unit at less than battalion strength, but on average a company can erect a bridge in 2-3 turns.

When you break down a battalion only the original (top of stack) unit has the 'Has Bridge' label, but don't let that dissuade you, the other two retain their full bridging capabilities and will regain the label in subsequent turns.
Interresting! I have't played FG'85. I have played NGP'85, Kharkov'43, FWWC France'14 but have not encountered batallion sized bridging engineers unit so far except of in the latter, and there I have not had much cause to build alot of bridges yet. But that might be for the simple reason I have only played scenarios so far that have company sized units of this type.
Mechanized bridge laying units I have never encountered in larger units than 12 vehicles, so company size aswell. And those doesn't seem to break down into smaller units. And if each vehicles represent an individual bridge layer such a unit should be have a bridge laying capability of 12 bridges atleast.
That is interesting. I'm pretty sure the Allies have battalion sized bridging units in Salerno 43. Might have to test that out. Thanks for the tip!
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