Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Forum for the Panzer Battles games series
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Sunbather
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Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Sunbather »

Hey there,

I am currently preparing another bulk order (of course I only get in the mood for new WDS after the sale has ended...

Hence, I need to be a bit picky about which title to buy. And since I am still a solo player when it comes to strategy games, I want to be especially attentive to the AI. (Played a France 40 "Arras" scenario today, it had 5 turns only, but since it was sort of a meeting engagement and both sides had objectives to defend and to capture. The AI decided to not attack my numerical inferior defenses at all and instead concentrated on their single defense objective and ignore the 5 attack objectives altogether. When the screen without the FOW came up, I nearly whinced when I saw how many units the enemy could have led against me. Please, no more of that! But also today I read the Second Quarter Update news for the second time and was enthused to find a paragraph about a new AI! This actually goes a long way towards convincing me of making another bulk order!

Ok, back to the main topic:

I will definitively buy Panzer Battles: Normandy since I am in the mood for Normandy stuff and actually already preparing a sound mod for that title.

I thought about getting PC: Salerno 43, mainly for the battles on Crete. However, now I see that the Panzer Battles: North Africa 1941 also have Crete included. And literally 90 percent of the scenarios are expressively marked as playable agains the AI.

So now the actual question because I find it hard to believe, especially on those HUGE North African maps: is the AI actually better than in the Panzer Campaigns?

I am also very eager to see how the variable victory objectives change up the game. It has become a bit tiresome to have these absolute objectives, only to lose or win because the point changed hands in the very last turn. So yeah, I am looking forward to that. It actually sounds like an evolution.
But of course the question is how does the AI handle something like that? Something "variable" when even static objectives are provoking it to make one blunder after the other?



PS: I know I could try the demo. And actually I already have. But as always it might take many hours until one can really judge if the AI is better or worse or the same.

PS2: I do want to apologize to have opened yet another AI thread.
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All_American
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by All_American »

In my experience it comes down to how scripted the AI is in any given scenario.

Have you played the WDS version of Arras? Mike Prucha did a lot of work with new scenarios for France '40, and I believe it includes some scripting for the AI. Played Hannut as the French and the German AI for sure did better than I expected while attacking.

Having said that, I think it is a close tie between Panzer Battles and Squad Battles for the best AI that WDS has to offer. I have been playing some Panzer Battles: North Africa 1941 lately and I find the AI much more adept at defending than equivalent Panzer Campaigns titles set in North Africa. For example, the Allied AI I played against did not abandon its entrenched positions at Fort Capuzzo and was able to fight me to a standstill.

Squad Battles titles on the other hand have scenarios where almost every squad is scripted to follow a certain attack/retreat path, or fight to last man. I actually explored the scripts in Red Victory scenarios and I found that in most of them both sides have AI scripts, often down to individual tanks and squads. Impressive!

Back to your original question though, Panzer Battles titles offer good enough AI in small to medium sized scenarios. At least the AI doesn't wander off its units aimlessly as is the case with unscripted Panzer Campaigns scenarios. Most of those I believe were originally designed in 2000s and haven't changed since.
Sunbather
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Sunbather »

All_American wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:38 pm Have you played the WDS version of Arras? Mike Prucha did a lot of work with new scenarios for France '40, and I believe it includes some scripting for the AI. Played Hannut as the French and the German AI for sure did better than I expected while attacking.
Yes, I played the WDS version which is why the obvious blunders of the AI scripting was so astounding to me! They somehow favored defending their single 50 points objective rather than attacking at least one of my five 50 points objectives. To be sure, they did attack quite aggressively in the beginning (and missed quite a few opportunities to overrun me), then they did the usual nonsensical shifting of forces we know from the AI, only to then withdraw for no apparent reason.
All in all, the AI remains a mystery to me since sometimes it seems to be very good at attacking different objectives spread over a wide open map (in NGP 85, e.g.) but then completely falls short on handling small maps and clustered objectives.
All_American wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:38 pm Having said that, I think it is a close tie between Panzer Battles and Squad Battles for the best AI that WDS has to offer. I have been playing some Panzer Battles: North Africa 1941 lately and I find the AI much more adept at defending than equivalent Panzer Campaigns titles set in North Africa. For example, the Allied AI I played against did not abandon its entrenched positions at Fort Capuzzo and was able to fight me to a standstill.
That's very encouraging to hear!
All_American wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:38 pm Squad Battles titles on the other hand have scenarios where almost every squad is scripted to follow a certain attack/retreat path, or fight to last man. I actually explored the scripts in Red Victory scenarios and I found that in most of them both sides have AI scripts, often down to individual tanks and squads. Impressive!
That's also good news since Red Victory has already made it on my final list as well! And even aside from the AI, the updated versions look too good not to buy!
That being said, I don't think scripting is the whole issue here. I haven't played enough Squad Battles to say anything about their AI, but there is scenario scripting in the bigger games as well, of course, and the AI also seems to follow it. I think it is more about the hierarchy of priorities inherent in the AI --- if that makes sense... It makes absolutely no sense that they withdraw from objectives so easily only to doomstack with other units in front of another objective to be taken. The AI seems very impatient and no scenarios script seems to be able to make it more patient.

Anyways, as stated before, I am really happy that Berto is already testing a new AI prototype. And when Berto is the same Berto who worked on the Campaign Series AI, we are in for a treat. AI will never be on the same level as a competent human, of course. But I really enjoy the AI in the Campaign Series, it gives me a really good opponent. So fingers crossed.
All_American wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:38 pm Back to your original question though, Panzer Battles titles offer good enough AI in small to medium sized scenarios. At least the AI doesn't wander off its units aimlessly as is the case with unscripted Panzer Campaigns scenarios. Most of those I believe were originally designed in 2000s and haven't changed since.
Thank you very much for your detailed answer. It's been of great help! Now I just must decide whether to buy Smolensk 41 for those speedy German drive towards Moscow, or double down on the Squad Battles and buy Advance of the Reich...
Sunbather
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Sunbather »

This noon before going to work (hence a bit under time pressure), I played the Mersa el Brega scenario (variable victory objectives) from the Panzer Battles demo. And I was actually quite surprised how aggressive the AI was. Of course, my biggest enemy was again the terrain and deciding on where to engage with my forces. But the Allied recon units even tried to flank me!
The more I think about it and the more I play these games, I get the idea that the AI is actually more capable of handling big, wide, open maps. Which would make sense, of course, since Smolensk 41 was the first PC game.

I'll definitively get both Normandy and North Africa Panzer Battles now. You can just tell that they are "new" games. They are so streamlined, have so many QOL features. And apparently, the AI is scripted quite well, too.
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Steel God
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Steel God »

Sunbather, can I ask why you are focused on AI play versus PBEM? Is it a preference that you would prefer to not play a human? Or do you feel you're "not good enough" yet to play a human? I only ask because I will say that if the ultimate goal is to get "good enough" (however one measures that) to play via PBEM thenI would encourage you to jump in and do it. You'll learn faster and will grow by leaps and bounds playing a human. Playing the AI you can actually develop habits that a human player will exploit. If you just prefer solo play against the AI, hey, all good, no judgement.
"Listen, I can design a better pencil, but I can't stop someone from sticking it up their nose." - John Tiller
Sunbather
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Sunbather »

Steel God wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:25 pm Sunbather, can I ask why you are focused on AI play versus PBEM? Is it a preference that you would prefer to not play a human? Or do you feel you're "not good enough" yet to play a human? I only ask because I will say that if the ultimate goal is to get "good enough" (however one measures that) to play via PBEM thenI would encourage you to jump in and do it. You'll learn faster and will grow by leaps and bounds playing a human. Playing the AI you can actually develop habits that a human player will exploit. If you just prefer solo play against the AI, hey, all good, no judgement.
As I said in my other post in the ACW subforum, the problem right now is that I might be playing 2 weeks straight of a game, almost every evening, but then my interest shifts or life happens and I don't find the time for gaming for weeks, especially something as taxing on your brain as the Panzer Campaigns. I also just like to finish a 36 turn scenario in about 2 to 4 sittings. And then it's done.
First and foremost, I enjoy playing the games to "reenact" history and read up on what happened and see what it actually looked like. That's enough joy for me right now, and I can do it in my own pace. But even for that it is nice to have an at least partially functioning AI, especially when you want to play defense battles as well and not only attack, attack, attack.

I guess, further down the line, I will get into PBEM playing eventually.
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Steel God
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Steel God »

A more than fair position to take Sunbather, best of luck to you.
"Listen, I can design a better pencil, but I can't stop someone from sticking it up their nose." - John Tiller
Blacksherman
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Re: Do the Panzer Battles have the best AI?

Post by Blacksherman »

I have been learning Panzer Battles and I find the AI to be competent. Yeah I know these games are best played H2H but I also know that the AI in Squad Battles can be very tough. I have been challenged playing against the AI and I find it to be a satisfying experience.
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