Casualties in 30 Years War

[RussellGardener1964]

Hi all,

I've recently bought 30 Years War. I haven't had much time to play it yet, but I've been following The Mack and his uploads on YouTube of Breitenfeld against the game AI.

Watching these videos, I'm struck by the few casualties caused by infantry units firing in block formation. Units of 900 to 1,000 men in 1:2 pike to shot formations are causing 0, 1 or 2 casualties by fire over 2 hexes. Even at 1 hex they struggle to get to double figures. Pistol fire from mounted at 1 hex is far, far more deadly in the game. It seems to me that the infantry fire casualties are considerably less than in WDS Renaissance, from tercios, for example.

Has anyone else noticed this? Any thoughts?

Kind regards
Russ

[rahamy]

My first comment to people when they bring up individual casualty questions (in every series) is to spend time considering the over all picture. In pretty much every instance then end result of one of our battles ends up bloodier than the historical situation - so you need to look at the over all picture. Play through multiple scenarios yourself, all the way through, and see what I mean.

[RussellGardener1964]

Hi Rich,

Many thanks for the response, and I appreciate it. I do have a specific question, though, that I'm keen to understand the answer to, which concerns the comparison of fire lethality between Renaissance and 30 Years War.

In Renaissance parameters.pdf we see the following fire values:
Tercio 1 hex = 4.0/3.5; 2 hex = 1.0/0.0
Arquebus 1 hex = 6.0/5.0; 2 hex = 1.0/0.5
Musket 1 hex = 7.5/7.25; 2 hex = 3/2.5; 3 hex = 0.75/0.5

In 30 Years War:
Pike and shot ratio 1:2 1 hex = 3.5/3.25; 2 hex = 0.75/0.5
Pike and shot ratio 1:1 1 hex = 2.75/2.5; 2 hex = 0.5/0.33

This means that firing is more lethal in Renaissance than in 30 Years War. In gameplay terms, that suggests that it will take longer in 30 Years War for a fire fight to have a significant outcome where one side breaks. Is that intentional by the game designers, and does it suggest that if we need to get a shift on in one sector of the battlefield, that the result is that we should look to move into contact rather than stand off and engage in a firefight.....in other words, is it deliberate to encourage closing to contact?

Sorry for labouring a point, but I'm just curious about why shooting by infantry becomes less effective than in the Renaissance title.

Kind regards
Russ

[TheGrayMouser]

Hi Rich,

Many thanks for the response, and I appreciate it. I do have a specific question, though, that I'm keen to understand the answer to, which concerns the comparison of fire lethality between Renaissance and 30 Years War.

In Renaissance parameters.pdf we see the following fire values:
Tercio 1 hex = 4.0/3.5; 2 hex = 1.0/0.0
Arquebus 1 hex = 6.0/5.0; 2 hex = 1.0/0.5
Musket 1 hex = 7.5/7.25; 2 hex = 3/2.5; 3 hex = 0.75/0.5

In 30 Years War:
Pike and shot ratio 1:2 1 hex = 3.5/3.25; 2 hex = 0.75/0.5
Pike and shot ratio 1:1 1 hex = 2.75/2.5; 2 hex = 0.5/0.33

This means that firing is more lethal in Renaissance than in 30 Years War. In gameplay terms, that suggests that it will take longer in 30 Years War for a fire fight to have a significant outcome where one side breaks. Is that intentional by the game designers, and does it suggest that if we need to get a shift on in one sector of the battlefield, that the result is that we should look to move into contact rather than stand off and engage in a firefight.....in other words, is it deliberate to encourage closing to contact?

Sorry for labouring a point, but I'm just curious about why shooting by infantry becomes less effective than in the Renaissance title.

Kind regards
Russ

There are more factors that come into play than just comparing shooting values. You would need to look at the pdt entries for shooting high-lo values, penalties for shooting in column etc.
Tyw was designed for mixed unit's, Ren for units broken down into constituent parts ie pike, shot, swordsmen etc( the tercio weapons units are only featured in a few alternate scenarios) Also , the musket weapon in ren is not the same as what they would have been using in the tyw. It was much more powerful but there are very few in #’s.

Overall I would say shooting is significantly more effective in tyw . Remember too in Ren, shot units are vulnerable, requiring a lot of coordination and thus your opportunity to stand off and shoot safely is much reduced.