Melee question

[TytusDeZoo82]

Hi Holdit
Thanks for the substantive presentation of the arguments and referring to my questions, you are probably the only person here who started the discussion and did not immediately jump out with asking questions and advice in the style of "go and find yourself".
Yes Valmy is speciffic but probably if Prussians achive French positions (and dysentery didn't strike them:)) they will change columns to lines.
Maybe they doing great work but they don't want to do the most important thing, namely: limiting the number of soldiers that can take part in hand-to-hand combat. So why we see stacks of cavalery and this funny high cavalery losses. You have right with column is a juicy target but very rare they broken and route, they usually fall like the orcs and die. And I couldn't understood this 50% bonus for column in melee. How they describe this, the soldier what are in column being 50% stronger or bigger? Column have is own bennefits: fast moving, better resistance to disorganization this enough. Maybe French column should have better fire power. And that would be enough.

[TheGrayMouser]

Hi Holdit
Thanks for the substantive presentation of the arguments and referring to my questions, you are probably the only person here who started the discussion and did not immediately jump out with asking questions and advice in the style of "go and find yourself".
Yes Valmy is speciffic but probably if Prussians achive French positions (and dysentery didn't strike them:)) they will change columns to lines.
Maybe they doing great work but they don't want to do the most important thing, namely: limiting the number of soldiers that can take part in hand-to-hand combat. So why we see stacks of cavalery and this funny high cavalery losses. You have right with column is a juicy target but very rare they broken and route, they usually fall like the orcs and die. And I couldn't understood this 50% bonus for column in melee. How they describe this, the soldier what are in column being 50% stronger or bigger? Column have is own bennefits: fast moving, better resistance to disorganization this enough. Maybe French column should have better fire power. And that would be enough.

So as you suggest, bayonet fights almost exclusively happened in built up areas or fortified areas, and rarely if and when formed infantry stumbled on each other in the fog or due to a defile etc. So the game isn’t trying to suggest 1800 men are each trying to skewer an enemy hex, the mass of men presumably is more likely to force a retreat, any causalties are from close in musketry.

I’m not sure which title you playing, but the ones I own give a column a 25 % attack bonus, which only partially offsets the inherit defender bonus.(details are in the manual).

There certainly could be changes to better reflect the line vs column thing. Perhaps stacks with columns within should suffer the”pass thru effect” like artillery does to them(ie one musket blast effects all column's in a hex equally)

Anyway, currently on a microcosm within the game , a single column which in all ways is equal to a unit it attacks in line has an actual combat disadvantage. So you probably would need a two to one advantage to get a small advantage and 3 or greater to get a big one. What is the correct amount? I don’t know!

Taking a larger micro situation, 9 battalions in line defend against
9 battalions in column stacked in threes’s. Can you for sure say the line is doomed or can it go either way after few turns?

[TytusDeZoo82]

Yes you have right 25% attack bonus my error. But how even this 25% could explain. They take some psylocibine mushroms like a berserkers and imagined that they are invicible?
I know only that line batalion about 500-600 man in line formation have no chance when two battalions of 800 man melee them. How is possible that this 1600 man can participe in single combat? No space there for such horde.
This all improvments are great but still this who have bigger stack win battle. Attacking flanks and rears for big batatiolns also no helps they have iron backs. I have feeling that no tactic but brutal ordinary masses rule in this game. I know that when I play like a Austrians in RBR the best tactic is run this big Austrian battalions and bring home to melee. This all skirmishers and lines have no really impact of battle but big stacks with big batalions.
I'm asking for what we need this great maps if mainly comabt occur on relativly small area with this skyscrapers of stack counters. And this cavalery big losses. Only way to full joy this game is HTH with some home rules, but I have no time to play with other people, this is hard manage to synchronize free time.
But simply optional rule what will limit how many man can particpate in melee combat should resolve this problem. For infantry 800 and for cav 300 let's say. But smarter people than I probably will scale this better. You ofcourse still have this big stacks but without befits and with some risk. But they are more resolve. And optional rule to delete this funny melee bonus. And such annoying people like me will be happiest people on this planet. But if game engine code will not handle this enough to say, and not immediately wish for an index with source texts, gathering sources take a lot of time.

[Sir John Cope]

give a column a 25 % attack bonus, which only partially offsets the inherit defender bonus.(details are in the manual).

I've read Melee Modifiers through, looking for your reference to an inherent defender bonus, and am none the wiser. For the sake of this and any newbie, what do you mean? TIA

[TytusDeZoo82]

Hi Sir John Cope
I didn't wrote this: "give a column a 25 % attack bonus, which only partially offsets the inherit defender bonus.(details are in the manual)."
This are TheGrayMouser words:))
I also heard at first time about this inherent defender bonus. If exist it has very weak impact on melee combat.
Like I said great games but after around 1807/1808 when combat columns dominate a battle fields. So Marengo, Jena, Austerlitz no feel early period but this from Lepizieg battle period. So why I have wild joy playing Waterloo and Eylau but not RBR. And if nothing change in this topic I will never think to go with Marengo or Jena unfortunettly.

[LarkinVB]

The defender bonus has a strong impact. Lookup Melee Resolution in the manual.

[Carlos]

The "inherent defender bonus" is covered in section "Melee Resolution" of the manual:

5.3.24 Melee Resolution
The final resolution of the melee is done using the standard Combat Results. The adjusted defending strength is used to calculate attacker casualties using a Low Combat Value of 40 and a High Combat Value of 160. The adjusted attacking strength is used to calculate defender casualties using a Low Combat Value of 20 and a High Combat Value of 100.

[TheGrayMouser]

Yes you have right 25% attack bonus my error. But how even this 25% could explain. They take some psylocibine mushroms like a berserkers and imagined that they are invicible?
I know only that line batalion about 500-600 man in line formation have no chance when two battalions of 800 man melee them. How is possible that this 1600 man can participe in single combat? No space there for such horde.
This all improvments are great but still this who have bigger stack win battle. Attacking flanks and rears for big batatiolns also no helps they have iron backs. I have feeling that no tactic but brutal ordinary masses rule in this game. I know that when I play like a Austrians in RBR the best tactic is run this big Austrian battalions and bring home to melee. This all skirmishers and lines have no really impact of battle but big stacks with big batalions.
I'm asking for what we need this great maps if mainly comabt occur on relativly small area with this skyscrapers of stack counters. And this cavalery big losses. Only way to full joy this game is HTH with some home rules, but I have no time to play with other people, this is hard manage to synchronize free time.
But simply optional rule what will limit how many man can particpate in melee combat should resolve this problem. For infantry 800 and for cav 300 let's say. But smarter people than I probably will scale this better. You ofcourse still have this big stacks but without befits and with some risk. But they are more resolve. And optional rule to delete this funny melee bonus. And such annoying people like me will be happiest people on this planet. But if game engine code will not handle this enough to say, and not immediately wish for an index with source texts, gathering sources take a lot of time.

Technically there is space. Assume companies are 3 ranks, Assume your example of 2 French battalions of 800 men each have 6 companies each. Each company would have a frontage of 90 men. If each battalion formed up in a 2 company wide column , the total men fronting the 4 company wide formation is 360 men. The defender with 600 men has a 200 men front. Both sides easily fit the width of a 100meter hex.

The question is would they( the columns) ever historically deploy so close( those four companies would fill the hex width with no room and they would not be able to form line).
Would a commander do this if he thought the enemy would run? I don’t know.

The only game I know that used hex’s and considered frontage of men explicitly in it’s combat rule was The Age Of Rifles.

[TytusDeZoo82]

Thanks guys for all explains, I will look in once again to manual with this comabt resolution calculations. At last some explains.
TheGrayMosuer 100% absolutly agree that there is space for 1600 man. But...like you said in front 360 man and what doing the rest? How I can figure out what doing this rest 1240 man? And I talk on Austrian 800 man batalions not French. French attacking in columns are not problem for me. From what I read in many books during this period, the Austrians fought mainly in the line, even with bayonets, they attacked in the line, maybe in 1808/9 they start using more commonly attack columns. I couldn't understood why they have this column attack bonus, they used very narrow columns in this period mainly for marching. Why WDS can not make Austrians Prussians and maybe Russians like this British infantry without this column attack bonus? Where is a problem? Why can't I feel that I'm fighting Austrians in 1800 not in 1813? And this big cavalery stacks? My 400 Austrian Hussars attacked 360 French Dragoons and lost fight even that I attacked partly from the rear. Rear and flank doesn't count in this game only numbers count.

[LarkinVB]

Rear and flank doesn't count in this game only numbers count.

Are you sure? I have read that flank/rear charges have an advantage in the manual.